Jordan Independent - Different take on public comment during city council meetings - Comments

I have just too many

elkes4 — Wed, 17 Feb 2010 09:38:41 -0600

I have just too many personal issues going on right now. That is why I do have sympathy for those on the council in that they have to deal with their personal issues and the community issues, all while fielding issues from people sitting at their computer and walking in the door... I know that it does take a special individual to handle that task; it is those people who make our country great.

I do think the council is doing all they can trying to fit 100 pound of squid in a ten pound jar. I just hope everyone does not get burned out or disgusted, before the economic situation that has plagued us gets back where it needs to be.

As for abuse… just don’t throw no rotting cabbages at me unless I am a paid performer at the Renaissance Festival, of which I am not, … that is one of my brothers….but watch out, he may pick it up and throw it back! (Giggle)

Hey Elkes are we going to

Daisy — Wed, 17 Feb 2010 08:11:42 -0600

Hey Elkes are we going to take this abuse sitting down at our computers?!!

Went to the City Council

Thom Boncher — Wed, 17 Feb 2010 02:33:44 -0600

Went to the City Council Meeting, as I sometimes do. Hung around for a couple of workshops. Got really late, but the discussions were worth it.

The second workshop concerned the possibility of having town hall meetings. I think it's gonna happen.

But what really got my attention was when the Council was discussing all the ways people could communicate with the Council. One of the members said something to the effect that we have a serious blogger presence out there.

I near to fell out of my chair. All this time I thought we were just a vocal minority of rabble rousers. Daisy and elkes4, he said "serious", so I'm pretty sure he wasn't talking about you two. (smiling at you both :-)

I'm going off theme here for

Thom Boncher — Wed, 06 Jan 2010 08:20:34 -0600

I'm going off theme here for a bit . . . sorry all . . . Joe, that must have been a nasty break. I'll add some prayers to the get well wishes for your wife.

Thanks Thom, She goes under

Joe Pearson — Wed, 06 Jan 2010 00:45:21 -0600

Thanks Thom, She goes under the knife in the morning. I hope she heals well.

I disagree about the "other towns do it, we can too" mentality statement. I know that Dave couldn't give a rip what other towns do. He is not another lemming. At least he and Mike were willing to learn more before making a decision. Others seemed to be just running into council meetings completely unprepared. And stuff that went home came back unopened.

The town needs more Joe Benkos. Demand to see the cotton pickin' books! And read them! Hopefully the city auditors will find the stuff buried in the Finance Director's books that we can't. I wouldn't want their job! When was the last time you read the auditor's report? It is amazing what they do find.

Public accountants are required by Minnesota law to notify the OSA when, during the course of an audit, they discover evidence of financial misconduct by a local government officer or employee.
https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/statutes/?id=6.67

Of course, you don't have to wait for the city auditors to find something. MN law also requires local government employees and officers to report problems. https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/statutes/?id=609.456

If you have Internet access then you have a huge resource. Don't waste it playing Farmville.

You can take this with a big grain of salt. My extremely limited experience with the city staff showed a cowboy attitude. "This is the problem I see, this is the solution I see, let's get it done, full speed ahead." There is very little planning. Next to nothing for research. And not enough experience.

I heard that Ed's only experience as a city administrator was as a short term temp in Farmington while they searched for a real administrator. Then Jordan hired him for his experience and steady hand.

- Joe Pearson

Joe, thank you for filling

Thom Boncher — Tue, 05 Jan 2010 17:10:55 -0600

Joe, thank you for filling us in on the details. Given that knowledge is power, this is really powerful information, to which I hope all the serial bloggers and others are paying attention. I remembered you and Andy having scads of information. It was very generous of you to take time to share it with us.

I wonder if the city administration realized the full import of what they were doing when they changed the meaning of the well ordinance. Same with the re-allocation of salaries into enterprise budgets. There is a pervasive "other towns do it, so it must be okay" mentality in City Hall. Usually, that's not a problem, but once in a while, some wrinkle in what Jordan does creates snafus like this.

Joe, thanks again. Sorry to hear about your wife's wrist. I hope it heals fast an well.

Oh yes, I remember. I had

Joe Pearson — Tue, 05 Jan 2010 15:23:55 -0600

Oh yes, I remember. I had to do city attorney work, city administrator work, and citizen work. Just to try to set things right. You were also instrumental, Dave. You, Mike Shaw and Joe Benko were the only ones who would listen. Good thing you did. If the city administration and city council would have stood their ground there would have been an even bigger mess. Maybe a legal battle. You know where that would have ended up.

I'm glad it was finally resolved peacefully. But my point is that it shouldn't have happened in the first place. What a waste of time and resources. Too many people didn't even know how aquifers are or how wells are constructed. All these unsubstantiated fears of city well water contamination from Andy's well. Ignorance isn't bliss. An ounce of research is worth a pound of waste.

I'm really late now. Gotta go.

- Joe Pearson

OK, The Minnesota state

Joe Pearson — Tue, 05 Jan 2010 15:11:06 -0600

OK, The Minnesota state auditor has some guidelines for city accounting. Here they are:
http://www.auditor.state.mn.us/other/ctas/docs/ctas_coa.pdf

As you can see, Jordan's method is odd. Doesn't fit with the recommended chart of accounts. I have a feeling that the town books are ripe for an Office of State Auditor review.

You can contact Rebecca Otto's office through Celeste Grant, General Counsel.

celeste.grant@state.mn.us

I live in St. Paul where the water rates are half Jordan's.
Although any member of the public can contact the State Auditor, it would look better if a Jordan resident made the request.

Have a great day.
- Joe Pearson

Joe, remember to include how

bucky — Tue, 05 Jan 2010 15:09:50 -0600

Joe, remember to include how this sticky little mess was resolved. The city changed the code to allow existing private wells not to be capped, as long as it could be proven that no cross contamination could occur.

I don't have the code in front of me but there was also something written that essentially exempt a greenhouse for the reasons you mention.

Your research was instrumental in getting the code changed. Thank you again.

David H
projectguy7@gmail.com

What can I say Joe?!! All I

Daisy — Tue, 05 Jan 2010 14:45:11 -0600

What can I say Joe?!! All I can say is I wish you had more time! We need someone like you on city council! What you wrote makes me sick, but we pretty much know things are not right at city hall! The problem is so few (like you) have the time or energy to fight it and city hall knows that! That is why government keeps growing and growing and growing! Ofcourse Ed does not live here nor does the city planner and if the finance director could sell his house he would be out of here also!! There are no excuses for the city council! They live here! Yet I do not feel they have the citizens best interests at heart! Why is that?!!

Sorry for the delay. End of

Joe Pearson — Tue, 05 Jan 2010 14:12:06 -0600

Sorry for the delay. End of year is nuts and my wife broke her wrist Thursday (12/31/09).

I had checked on these laws back in September of 2008. See Minnesota Statute 103i.111, Subdivision 3. It states that a political subdivision may not regulate the construction, repair, or sealing of wells. Translation: a city may not require construction, repair, or 'capping' of wells.

The Minnesota DNR, Dept of Ag, MPCA and MDH are concerned with wells. Ultimately the MDH is the final authority on drinking water and the City must answer to them.

While digging into state law for Andrew I came across the proper handling and regulation of 'enterprise funds' which is how cities should handle accounting for their utilities. As stand-alone, non-profit enterprises. I noted that the fees for the utilities should reflect the costs of providing that utility. Not more. Although a 'reserve' is acceptable, if the reserve gets to be excessive there should be a correction in the fee schedule. (Not additional expenses.) I checked the metropolitan council city utility fees table and noted that Jordan tops the list as most expensive water utility fees. I checked the city auditors report and noted that they specifically stated that the city water utility was being run as a 'for profit' business. That was a red flag.

I found that very interesting, but my main concern was the city's position on Andrew's well. He asked for a variance to the city ordinance, noting that Jordan appeared to be the only city in the state banning wells and was denied. He asked them to change the ordinance and was denied. Then I found the MDH and 103I.111, SubD 3.

Unfortunately I did not write down the source of 'non-profit enterprise'. If I find a spare moment I will look it up.

I'm sure that paying the top city administration salaries from the water utility is in violation of the spirit of the law. Common sense tells you that it is just wrong. It is bad accounting. They do not work within the water utility enterprise and should not be paid by it.

Another thing that was in violation of the spirit of the law is the way the City Administration handled the recodification somewhere around 2006. When they rewrite the city ordinances to include the amendments they MUST NOT change the meaning of the amended ordinance. Yet they did. The city staff created the ban on wells without consulting the city council. There was no input or acknowledgement, public or otherwise. When the revised book of ordinances was 'reviewed' by the city council they summarily approved it without due process. (Can't you just see Mayor Jabs gently encouraging the council to vote on it and move on to the next item?) They were not made aware of the changes in meaning but since they approved it anyway it becomes a legal document. That is like signing a contract without reading it. Just because everybody else does it doesn't make it less dumb. Normally the staff changing the ordinances would violate the letter of the law, but since the council approved the book they get by on a technicality.

I'm really surprised that Ed and his staff weren't severely reprimanded (or fired) for that. (Willfully changing ordinances and slipping it by the council.) He is paid handsomely for that? Does he even live near Jordan?

And if the City Attorney really was consulted on the well ban ordinance (Ord. 51.05 as of 2007) and she approved it then she should have been reprimanded (or fired) for incompetence because it was illegal and there obviously was no legal search involved in its creation and approval.

I don't have time for this. Have a great day.

- Joe Pearson

Andrew Pearson received a

Joe Pearson — Tue, 05 Jan 2010 12:14:03 -0600

Andrew Pearson received a letter from the City in August, 2008, informing him that they understood he had a well and it was in violation of City Ordinances. They gently encouraged him to 'cap' his well. He called me and asked if this was true. I looked up the ordinances and told him that not only was it true, but the ordinance had a bite. You had 30 days after getting city water service to the property to cap the well. Andrew has had city water in his house for years and well water for the greenhouses. The two systems are separated by about 100 feet. I believe the penalty was a misdemeanor for each day after. With a potential fine of up to $300 for each day Andrew was looking at over $30,000 in fines. Of course this was all a complete surprise to Andrew. No one is notified when an ordinance change affects them and this one was a couple of years old already. He called City Administration on Friday and asked how long he had to cap his well and Ed said that it would be OK if he had it done by Monday. The well drillers said it would probably be $12,000 to seal the well.

Andrew also didn't want to use City water for the greenhouse because it is not good for the plants. Chlorine is used to kill things.
Andrew's well water comes from a different aquifer than the city water and, unlike city water, there are no measurable nitrates (a cause of blue-baby syndrome) in Andrew's well water. Note: The city nitrates level is well within EPA limits and completely passes all Clean Water Safety guidelines.

- Joe Pearson

Tim, thanks for the

Mathias Baden — Mon, 04 Jan 2010 11:37:50 -0600

Tim, thanks for the question. If you click the Reply link before commenting, you are allowing the Web site to organize your comment on topic. That way, you can respond to another person's comment individually. If everything were strictly chronological, it would be difficult to have a back and forth, since you might want to respond to something someone wrote a year ago. I agree, it looks a little funny here, but the general idea is to stay on topic and have comments be somewhat organized by topic. Hope that helps.

(Mathias Baden is the editor of the Jordan Independent. He can be reached at editor@jordannews.com.)

Why is this blog chronology

Tim Bischke — Fri, 01 Jan 2010 21:23:05 -0600

Why is this blog chronology so mixed up? 2010 entries are mixed in with 12/21 entries. anyways, I agree with Thom, the city is NEVER going to answer anything on a blog; it's hard enough to get answers from them at council meetings. The only answers they give are what's expedient for them. They like to hide behind "legal considerations". I couldn't believe our water bill this time (mid-Oct thru mid-Dec)--over $100. We did no yard watering & were gone for 2 weeks?

Twinsfan14, you won't get an

Thom Boncher — Fri, 01 Jan 2010 16:18:13 -0600

Twinsfan14, you won't get an answer from the City on any blog. I think you should ask these questions at a Council Meeting.

I've spoken with Joe Pearson in the past, and he generally does his homework, so I trust his comments. I just hope he'll give us a little more detail on the laws he cites.

Kyle, I've been told there are dozens of uncapped wells in the city limits, and the city is inspecting them to assure there's no cross-contamination from wells to city water lines. Of course, this begs the question, what gives the City the right to come onto someone's property to inspect well connections. As I recall, Andy Pearson's state-required well water quality checks show that his well water is cleaner than city water.

Different take on public comment during city council meetings

Mathias Baden — Fri, 18 Dec 2009 15:29:06 -0600

Since Pete Ewals took the mayoral seat last January, he's been trying different things to make the public feel comfortable speaking in front of the Jordan City Council. It's been a constant debate in the council chamber.

- How can we make public meetings more accessible for residents?

- What arrangement of chairs and tables, as well as what seating assignments, is appropriate?

- Can we up the sound quality in the council chamber and on public access cable TV?